Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:00:05] There are two big questions entrepreneurs often face. Should I write a book? And how do I actually scale my business? First up, in today’s episode, we hear from business book publisher Lesley Williams. She’ll talk us through self-publishing versus traditional publishing. Leslie outlines the strategic trade offs between the two options, including distribution, timelines, control, credibility, and the real financial maths. Then we hear from Dorry Kordahi, entrepreneur and the original shark from Shark Tank on what scaling looks like once the cameras stop rolling, and why founders often try to grow too early. From SoundCartel, I’m Grace Jennings-Edquist, and this is Business Essentials.
Writing a book: should you try a commercial publisher, or self-publish?
Our first guest is experienced book publisher Leslie Williams. She’s a business book publisher at the Major Street imprint at Rockpool Publishing. If you’re thinking about writing a book, one of the biggest decisions you’ll face is how to publish it. Should you pursue a traditional commercial deal, or should you take control and self-publish? To help unpack the differences between the two, I asked Leslie, what are some key strategic differences between self-publishing versus seeking a commercial publishing deal?
Lesley Williams: [00:01:19] I think what a commercial publisher will offer you. Let’s start with that. So a commercial publisher will take your book to market, whereas a self-publishing, you take your own book to market, which means a commercial publisher will get your book into bookstores. And for a lot of entrepreneurs, business people, they want their books in the airport bookstores. They want to see their book in demux into physical stores. Now, Self-publishers can get their books on Amazon and online, many online booksellers by uploading their books onto a platform called Ingramspark. So basically, they do all the work, get the book all ready, all ready for printing, and then they can upload those files onto Ingramspark. And Ingramspark will populate Amazon, I think Booktopia. And it says on the Ingramspark platform exactly where it will, your book will be available for sale. And the way those books are sold usually is the customer will click on your product page on, for example, the Amazon book site, Amazon in the back end will print one copy and they will send it out to the consumer. So you can distribute your book if you self publish it in that way. But that’s not the same as having your book in bookstores, especially in the airport bookstores or, you know, in the big bookstores. And that is what a commercial publisher will offer you over and above a self publishing. So that’s kind of the distribution side. That’s the end. That’s where you’ll see your book when it’s in print. So along the way, the The differences are timing and control. So a traditional publisher will have a publishing program.
Lesley Williams: [00:03:05] We are currently working on our 2027 publishing program, so we have more or less got our publishing program in place for the rest of 2026. So if you send me your manuscript tomorrow, even if I love it, it’s not going to come out for at least another, you know, 10 to 12 months. And the reason that we do that is because, I mean, it’s a financial decision in some ways. We allocate our royalties like 12 months ahead, I guess, and then allocate our budgets a few months ahead. But it’s also because of the sales cycle. So we spend especially Major Street. Now that we’re with Rockpool, we spend a good couple of months sort of refining that sales kit. So we get your cover, we make sure everyone’s happy with that cover. We talk about you as the author, we work on the metadata and the pricing, and we have as much information as possible for the sales team. On why this book is going to sell so that we present it to them and then they present it the booksellers. And that’s kind of a six month period, really. By the time we put the information together, we give it to the sales team to distribute it to the booksellers. So that’s, that’s a long winded way of saying, let’s flip it around. If you self-publish, you can basically have your manuscript written and have it uploaded onto Amazon within three months if you’re quick. Uh, so that’s, that’s another sort of thing to weigh up when you’re thinking about which route to go.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:04:32] That’s a great overview. I wonder if you could speak a little bit to the key financial trade offs between self-publishing and commercial publishing for a business author, because that’s the other big thing worth knowing about.
Lesley Williams: [00:04:41] I think that’s a big thing as well. So commercial publishing shouldn’t really cost you anything. If you go the traditional publisher, although our business model sometimes, and I know other publishers have a business model, whereas if they. They might ask an author to underwrite the project by buying a number. A quantity of books back themselves. But usually. And. And that doesn’t apply to all mainstream publishing. But you could be asked, you know, or, you know, will you buy a few hundred copies yourself? And if your answer is yes, I’m doing lots of keynotes and I’m using it in my business development, then that will influence a publisher’s decision because they think, great, you know, we’ve already sold kind of 500 books, but but generally it shouldn’t cost you anything. So the publisher will underwrite all the costs associated with publication, the design, the cover design, the internal design, the editing, writing, the blurbs, the sales and marketing. Um, and they will pay you a royalty on sales. And the way that that royalty is calculated is generally it’s a percentage of net receipts. So in business book publishing, if you’re publishing fiction, you might be given 10% of cover price. But I know that the trend now is for a percentage of net receipts. And by that I mean whatever the publisher gets for your book, you get a percentage of that. So if your book costs $30 and an average trade discount is 50%, which it is, then you get 15 or 17% or 20%, whatever, you can negotiate of that 50% of revenue. So it’s a little bit complicated and there is a sliding scales, but let’s just use some ballpark figures. You might be getting between about two and $3 on a $30 book per book sold. Okay. So that’s your commercial publishing.
Lesley Williams: [00:06:29] But then there’s no costs involved. If you’re self-publishing, you have to pay for your cover, your cover design, you have to pay for your editing, you have to pay for your printing, all the steps of production along the way you pay for. And that can be expensive. So to get, I mean, you can do it on the cheap or you can do it well. And most entrepreneurs and business people, this book is a reflection of them and their business. So you really don’t want to get to the end of the process. And people are moaning because there’s typos in your books, or it’s too small because they can’t read it properly or the cover doesn’t resonate. So, you know, if you are going to do this and self-publish, you know, your budget should be at least $10,000, I would say. You know, we pay 3 to $4000 to a good specialist editor. We pay $1,000 for a cover designer. Your layout is going to cost you money. So yeah, it’s not cheap, but the return is that every book you sell, all the money comes to you. So if your main sales are through Amazon, then, um, you’re still only going to get 50% or 45% because they take theirs as well. But it’s a lot more than the 15% of, of 50%. It is a little bit complicated. So more upfront fees for self-publishing, less Distribution and less control. So it’s one thing we haven’t talked about. If you go to a commercial publishing house, they will want control because they know their market. But I don’t think they would impose a cover that you hate. Their editing process will be collaborative. But if you’re self publishing, every decision is yours. You have your book your way.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:08:10] I wanted to ask, how much does traditional or commercial publishing still matter for credibility in the business world? You know, is it perceived differently? Someone who’s self-published a book versus been picked up by a commercial publisher, which is sort of, you know, seen as someone’s thought, you know, this person’s credible enough to be able to sell. I suppose.
Lesley Williams: [00:08:28] I, I’m a bit biased, but I think that there is sort of an authority and a bit of weight behind a book that has been published commercially rather than self-publishing. I think if it is in books, physical bookstores, I think that speaks volumes. And it also means that it’s been through a selection criteria. You know, when we publish a book, we have to pitch it to our sales team. We have to pitch it to a whole bunch of editors. And it’s not until there are hoops to jump through for us to even get it to offer a contract. So you’ve got a team of people with great belief in that book before it goes to market. Uh, so yeah, I do think that if you can get a publisher behind your book, uh, but, but it’s, it’s risk and return, you know, you’ve got to balance that.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:09:13] My last question is about entrepreneurs or business leaders hoping to go down the commercial publishing path. Obviously, they have to submit their book. They have to actually be selected. So what are 1 or 2 top tips that someone should know before approaching a publisher or even an agent, if they wanted to go down that route?
Lesley Williams: [00:09:29] There are a few really. So I think the first thing that I need to be clear about is that when you send in a submission to a publisher, it’s it’s not just about the book, especially in this business book space. It is as much about you as an author that the community that you can bring to your book. Um, so that’s in terms of whether you’ve got a LinkedIn profile, how many people follow you, how engaged are they, whether you have a podcast, whether you’re writing for Substack, because that is how your book is going to gain visibility. And so you could have written the best book in the world. And this happens quite frequently. Brilliant book. Love this book. It’s brilliant. But the author is not even on LinkedIn doesn’t, you know, he’s got a gmail account and doesn’t do any promotion, which is sadly, it’s just not going to we’re not going to be able to make it visible and stand out in what’s quite a crowded market. So one thing that you can be doing, so as well as working on your manuscript work on your social media platform, or whether it’s a blog or whether it’s a podcast, whatever your preference is, as many things as you can so that when you show your publisher your book, you’re also showing them you. So that might be keynote. You know, you might be speaking in front during ten keynotes next year. What sort of. It’s, it is really a numbers game that a publisher looks at.
Lesley Williams: [00:10:49] And so if your book is rejected, it’s sometimes, often not really on the value of what you’re writing about your IP. It could be brilliant, but you just might not be at the stage at that time where the publisher thinks you’re going to be able to help them promote the book. So that’s one thing I wanted to say. And also, just be mindful that a publisher has kind of got a vision for what they want their program to look like over the next 12 months to two years. So sometimes, again, your book can be brilliant, but it’s just not what they’re looking for. They might not think that there’s a trend in that area of publishing is where they want to go. They might already have another author they’re talking to who has a book on the same subject. Or it might be just like, for example, we have a business list, so we would probably have three spots for personal finance, three spots for leadership, three spots for self-help, that kind of thing. And if we’ve already commissioned in that area, no matter how brilliant your book is, you know, we’ve spent our money already on that. We’ve allocated our resources. So you’re not you’re going to get a knock back. So I do realize you have you have to be really thick skinned and don’t take it personally because it’s not a personal decision. A commercial publisher is making a business decision.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:11:59] That was Lesley Williams, publisher at Major Street Imprint, which is part of Rockpool Publishing. Turning now to growing businesses.
From start-up to global venture: The original “shark” on how to scale
Our next guest is Dorry Kordahi. Dorry is a serial entrepreneur and CEO of Swanky Socks. He was also an original shark from Shark Tank. We heard Dorry’s impressive career story in a recent episode, but today we’re discussing what it really takes to scale a startup into a global brand. To kick the interview off, I asked Dori to explain his brand building philosophy in one sentence.
Dorry Kordahi: [00:12:36] Probably build something that people are proud to wear and use and associate with. Um, so I’ve always focused on just trying to build a product that people are proud to be a part of, and that’s important.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:12:47] Here’s one that seems to divide entrepreneurs and business leaders. Do you think scaling is about moving fast and breaking things, or focusing on patience and precision?
Dorry Kordahi: [00:12:57] Look, I think it’s about it’s a mix between both, but I think patience is paramount. I think a lot of brands try to move too quick, too fast. And I think with patience, you start to identify what your brand stands for and your brand could evolve, you know, and at times the market could dictate your what your brand stands for. And then so you need to be able to sort of move with what the market tells you as well. So I’m more about precision more than speed. But then again, when you do get that right, then, you know, fire away.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:13:24] One of your current ventures, of course, is Swanky Socks. It started at about a $40,000 turnover, and now it’s a global brand that has sold over 3 million pairs and counting. What were 1 or 2 key decisions you made that changed that growth trajectory?
Dorry Kordahi: [00:13:39] Um, look for us committing to quality in the product, positioning the brand as a retail grade product, which is what it started off with, and then pushing them to the market. So we didn’t want to be perceived as a promotional sock, um, selling to the corporate B2B market. We want it to be perceived as a retail brand selling to the primary market. And that’s what really differentiated our business to other promo sock brands out there is that for us, our key focus was build that vision at the start as a retail brand, or whether the perception was whether we sold once or a million in the retail market, but transitioned that philosophy into the corporate B2B market, which is what we’ve done pretty well.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:14:22] Let me ask you this. What is a belief about business that you hold strongly that most people disagree with?
Dorry Kordahi: [00:14:29] For me, it’s keeping things very simple. You know, the whole Kiss approach. Keep it simple, stupid. I’ve got a lot of friends that are really successful. I know friends that are billionaires that have done really well in business and have a lot of money, and we all have the same philosophy. It’s, you know, don’t complicate business. And I’ve had these debates with other business leaders, you know, and the more you simplify business, the more clarity you get. I keep pushing the simplicity in business. When I speak to business leaders alike and, you know, we debate, you know, from both sides and our views and opinions. But I’ve always been a believer of you just sort of keep things very, very simple and just get work done.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:15:09] I can’t let you go without asking you this. You’re also known as the original shark, of course. What does Shark Tank not show about the real work of scaling that happens off screen?
Dorry Kordahi: [00:15:20] There’s a lot of work involved. The deal’s a fun part. But, you know, it’s it’s working through cash flow, making mistakes, you know, legal issues, you know, relentless execution. It’s just the ongoing work of what’s required. And people don’t realize that an idea is an idea, but its execution and bringing that to life is, is a biggest challenge in life. And, and that’s something that there’s always bells and whistles on the, on the front end, but there’s a lot of kicking and paddling on below the waters that people don’t realize. They see the, the finished product that looks great, but it’s rolling up your sleeve and doing so many different things in a business that needs to be done for the whole process to move. So, and when you’re a startup, you don’t have the luxury to have, you know, five, six, seven, eight staff. So you’ve got to be, you’ve got to really be multitask and multi talented to the degree that you’ve got to be not the greatest at every part of, of a business, but actually having a good understanding of every part of the business to lead and, and to get your hands dirty and get in there and do it.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:16:23] Final question here. What’s the biggest mistake founders make when they try to grow too early? And what do you think they should focus on instead?
Dorry Kordahi: [00:16:31] As I said earlier, like I think a lot of people rush the idea and I think you do need to work within. I’ve always said to put. What I speak to is actually work within the industry before you start trying to run. Very simple term, you know, if you know how to put bread into a toaster and you know how to, uh, make a coffee at home, doesn’t mean you know how to run a cafe, get behind the machine. You know, work machines, work the floor. I think you need to understand your business before, uh, before you run too quick. And I’ve seen a lot of friends trying to start up a business or a brand, and they’ve got this great idea that, you know, it looks pretty. And, you know, I think that it’s going to work because they’re looking at polls and projections, but projections are projections. Um, I think a lot of people aren’t prepared for what comes with it. And that’s why I always say about being mentally prepared, visualizing what your business is going to look like and be ready to put in the hard work. Um, and that’s where people just think you land on a mountain, you got to climb the mountain. And as we know that climbing a mountain, you’re going to have some tough days and some easy days and being persistent and consistent over a long period of time, you’re going to succeed. But a lot of people just give up before the going gets tough and and realize, oh, well, this is not as easy as I thought. No it’s not. So mental preparation is just as important as the execution and doing the hard work.
Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: [00:17:52] That was Dorry Kordahi, CEO of Swanky Socks and serial entrepreneur. Thanks for joining us for this week’s episode. Follow Business Essentials Podcast across social media and head to www.BusinessEssentialsPodcast.au for more. Business Essentials is a SoundCartel podcast. Producers are Nick Schildberger, Nicole Goodman and myself. Technical production is by Pete Letts. I’m Grace Jennings-Edquist thanks for listening. We’ll bring you more business essentials next week.
