[00:00:00] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: Is discipline or vision more important when it comes to building a successful business? And what happens when the next generation can’t even get a foot in the door? In this week’s episode, we’re speaking to experts with answers to both those questions. First up, author, founder and CEO Dane Hudson explains why vision alone won’t scale a business and why disciplined execution systems and leadership maturity are what truly drive growth. Then, recruitment leader Catherine Kennedy, From People2People unpacks a major workforce shift why employers are hiring fewer junior staff, and what that means for graduates, organizations and the future of leadership. From SoundCartel. I’m Grace Jennings-Edquist, and this is Business Essentials.
Why discipline beats vision
Our first guest is Dane Hudson. He’s author of Discipline Beats Vision. He’s also founder and CEO of Impactful Leadership and one of the region’s leading CEO mentors. Scaling a business takes more than a compelling idea. It demands structure, consistency, and strong leadership habits. So what separates the companies that grow from those that stall? Dane Hudson has some answers, and he starts our conversation by telling me why discipline, not vision, is what truly drives business success.
[00:01:24] Dane Hudson: Vision is still critically important. So, you know, in the startup community, all founders and their teams, particularly when they’re small, are optimists. And so as the business grows, you need a destination to where you’re going. So that’s why vision is critically important. But the analogy I would use is think about when you’re driving from, say, Sydney to Cairns. Um, you need to plan that trip. So where are we going to stop? How are we going to get there when we’re leaving all those things. So discipline all the elements between where you are today and where you want to get to. The vision, you’re not going to get to the vision simply by saying, that’s our target. You need to have plans in place, and you need to be deliberate in executing those plans to get to the vision.
[00:02:18] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: And you’ve said many high growth companies stall after early success. What are the most common reasons that happens?
[00:02:25] Dane Hudson: Well, when I think about the evolution of a startup, generally it’s 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 founders, co-founders, a team, and they all look the same. You know, they’re all techie, they’re all engineers. They might have gone to university together. They might have gone to school together. They might have been best friends. So they’re all very similar and they have this combined goal. So it’s actually really easy. I’m not saying it’s easy to find what the great product is or solution is, but working together is quite easy because they’re all very similar and they know where they’re going. The second the business starts growing, you’ve got so many other complexities that come into place. You need to interact with customers. You’ve got to interact with suppliers, maybe start bringing in functional people onto the team. Then heaven forbid you bring in investors and a board and you’ve got to work with all of them. So when the business is small, it’s quite easy because you’re all quite similar. And then as the business expands and scales, there are all these complexities that come into play. And I’ve been fortunate in that I’ve had a great corporate career, so I’ve seen great leadership and I’ve seen terrible leadership. A lot of these startup founders haven’t actually seen what good leadership looks like or bad leadership looks like and what the components are. And so that’s probably the key reason that a lot of these businesses don’t scale. They don’t know what good leadership or great leadership looks like.
[00:03:55] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: Following on from that, obviously, a lot of our listeners are founders. What leadership shift do they need to make? When a company grows from a small team to, say, hundreds of employees?
[00:04:05] Dane Hudson: That’s a really difficult one for a founder who’s so close to the product. And that’s their bias. That’s their skill set. And so they often get sucked back into being very product focused, being very technically focused, working closely with the product team, or they’re often the best salespeople in the business too. So when they go and meet with customers, the customers get it really quickly in terms of the value add that this product adds. As the business grows, the founder can definitely still have their fingers in that area, but they need to actually invest time in other areas. So they need to be thoughtful about obviously cascading down from the strategy, how the organization structure complements that strategy, what people they’re going to put in those boxes, and what’s the process and systems they’re going to put in place that are going to link all those things. And that’s a completely different shift in their mindset and actually skill set as well. So they need to think about how to actually learn to do these things as well. And that’s why my book, I talk about support systems and mentors and coaches and advisors to help you on that journey, because getting the strategy right, the organization structure, the people right, the processes, right isn’t necessarily their natural skill set, but it needs to be. And so they actually need to learn how to do that.
[00:05:26] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: You argue that operating systems matter more than charismatic leadership. So what does a good leadership system actually look like inside a growing company?
[00:05:35] Dane Hudson: So number one, Grace, I would suggest that you need to be thoughtful about what is your leadership team look like. And so obviously, if you’re the founder or CEO, who are the people that are going to compliment me under, who are the people that are going to compliment me? And ideally, you’re choosing people that are as smart, if not smarter than you and that have actually functional or expertise that you don’t have to lead the different parts of the business. So the first part of the management system is actually building a leadership team that is the right group of people. That’s going to take you forward in the business. Once you have that, I love the framework and I actually just articulated it before. Think about obviously your vision, but then your strategy. How does that actually, what are the components that are going to take you forward? Um, next piece is what’s the organization structure look like that complements the strategy? The third piece and this actually is often comes people think about it first up, but actually it’s not number three is think about the right people and the right positions as they fit into the structure. And then the fourth one, think about the organization, the processes and the systems that are going to bring things in place. So if you think about a system, I’d be thinking about cascading down from building your leadership team to then being thoughtful about what’s your strategy structure and within the structure, what’s your business model? And that’s going to change many times over the first few years. Who are your people and what are the processes and systems that are going to complement that? I think that’s a nice way to cascade through a business operating system.
[00:07:14] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: I’ve got a big question for you to finish off with. If there is one discipline or habit you think every CEO should adopt tomorrow to improve their organization’s performance, what would it be?
[00:07:25] Dane Hudson: Okay, I’m going to give you two. Grace, I’m so sorry. Number one is role modeling. So, you know, you as the leader have a leadership shadow. And so your leadership shadow is your positional power. Everything you say and do is exaggerated by your position. And so be really thoughtful about your leadership shadow. And I use the term in the book, use it for good, not evil. We’re all human, we sometimes lose our temper, etc. but as a CEO, that gets exaggerated. So number one, you have to be very aware of your leadership shadow number two is have targets. You’ve obviously got the vision, but I’ve worked with some clients and they’ve had revenue for 3 or 4 years, and they still actually don’t have an annual target, an annual plan. Build a plan. Know what revenue you’re targeting, what margin you’re targeting, what supply costs you’re targeting, what delivery costs, what’s your customer acquisition cost is going to be. Have targets and then maniacally follow up maniacally follow up. And the final thought with follow up is there’s got to be consequences. And this is an area where a lot of founders struggle. There’s got to be consequences and consequences could be high five great job. Or it could be don’t come Monday.
[00:08:44] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: That was Dane Hudson, author of Discipline Beats Vision and founder and CEO of Impactful Leadership.
Why employers are hiring fewer juniors
Now we’re switching gears to discuss the entry level job crunch. New research from people to people recruitment shows that 45% of employers expect to hire fewer junior roles within 3 to 5 years. That compares to just 14% of employers in 2026. In this conversation, Nicole Goodman unpacks these astonishing findings with Catherine Kennedy, managing director at People2People. Catherine has said that these stats show a capability gap opening up in real time. So Nicole started the interview by asking Catherine what that means.
[00:09:26] Catherine Kennedy: In terms of the capability gap. There’s really two components to that. So there’s one which is around the pace at which organisations are investing in and adopting AI in their work processes and how it’s actually impacting the day to day operations of their business. Alongside how quickly they’re investing in upskilling and equipping their workforce for that future. So there is a little bit of a gap in terms of the pace at which those two things are moving along. And our research did show that there is a disconnect around employees feeling. And I think it was 70% of employees who said they don’t feel that their organization is investing in them or equipping them adequately for that AI future. So there’s that piece. But then the other is around the wider sort of workforce implications. And what that will mean in the future is the talent pipeline that will come through to be the leaders of the future. So if there’s a lot less people coming into the workforce and those roles are changing so much, what are the implications for that in five years, ten years, 20 years, really?
[00:10:37] Nicole Goodman: Well, that’s right. And whether you’re a young person or you’re starting out in a new career, you’ve got to start somewhere, right? So under somewhat of an AI takeover, how can graduates enter the workforce then? And what roles can employees play in maintaining this need? I kind of just see a glut of new students or graduates kind of coming out of university or training institutions aren’t going. Now, where do I go?
[00:11:03] Catherine Kennedy: Yeah, absolutely. It’s yeah, definitely a very real, you know, issue. I guess that certainly graduates and even organizations are grappling with a couple of things that I would say on The Graduate or the sort of entry level you’re the worker trying to join the workforce. A few things that I would recommend in terms of setting yourself up to be successful and to get those more limited opportunities. And it’s really around being able to demonstrate that you have got capability and that you have got some of the attitudinal and behavioral things that an organization will be looking for, not just for what the job might be that you would go into right now, but what you might be able to lead into. So things like any kind of project work or internships or a portfolio of work, depending on what your kind of area of specialization is, but really give some evidence that you’re someone who has initiative is able to adapt And adapt to and adopt particularly AI tools and technology, and give some evidence that you can then translate that into the workforce. From the employer perspective, it’s really such a changing landscape in that, you know, the entry level roles until very recently were someone would join the workforce. They’re doing relatively repetitive, low consequence work. And it’s sort of almost learned through osmosis. And, you know, you follow a kind of linear pathway. Employers are going to have to change that. They’re really going to have to change that because there’s only so much of that sort of work that’s available. So the role of the leaders in these organizations is to be able to set up sort of systems that people can join and get that capability in a way that is different to how it’s been done before. So it might mean that they have to have a bit more exposure earlier on to decision making. It needs supervision, but, you know, they need to get into the real work in inverted commas, a bit more quickly than they would have done in the past.
[00:13:04] Nicole Goodman: Yeah, because at the other end of the spectrum, how does one then conduct succession planning or career growth? And how do promotions happen if really only those strategic people are required at the top?
[00:13:17] Catherine Kennedy: Look, there’s always as you go sort of further up an organization, there’s more limited opportunities, I suppose, but I think there is really a trend to cross-functional and diversifying your skills. Maybe before there is a direct sort of linear promotion. So that’s definitely a component of setting yourself up to then be able to get those opportunities later on in your career to get as much sort of diverse experience as you can. But for organizations, and I was actually speaking to a managing partner of quite a large law firm a couple of weeks ago, and he said that, you know, their approach now to hiring junior lawyers is not so much what’s the technical capability and their academic performance and, you know, those sorts of traditional things you might look at for a graduate hire. He said a little bit tongue in cheek. But, you know, I think there was truth to this. He said, I’m wanting to hire the next managing partner. So it’s about demonstrating the particularly, I think the word you used was a sort of AI takeover. And, you know, it is just literally every day it’s more and more and more in discussion and more prevalent with the businesses that we work with. So in that context, it’s the human being able to really showcase, develop and do well the human things that AI is not able to do. That I think really is the future in terms of career growth and your career path as well.
[00:14:40] Nicole Goodman: You mentioned earlier that employee investment in AI education is going to be critical. Which sectors are you seeing at the moment that kind of investment being funneled and our employers playing their part in AI training?
[00:14:53] Catherine Kennedy: Yes. So look, the sectors that we’re seeing the most investment in AI broadly are the ones that are quite data driven. It’s quite tangible, the outcome or the efficiency benefits of AI. So data analytics, accounting, it even some of the direct customer experience type functions as well. So that’s where the majority of the investment is right now in terms of employers playing their part. Yes, they are in terms of intent. And we in our research, I think 75% of the employers who we who we surveyed for that research said they were planning to invest in AI learning and development in 2026. So the intent is there, but there is that disconnect between what is actually being delivered right now and the experience of employees. And I think, you know, what is a bit unique about this situation is there is no roadmap for this. There’s no you can’t go and speak to a consultant and ask them how they did it successfully in a different industry or in a different organization. So there’s definitely an element of needing to work together and learn together as we go as to what the best way is to deliver training, because it’s such a rapidly changing landscape as well that it’s not a case of or here’s a module you need to learn and then you know it because it could be different even next month. So that’s one of the challenges.
[00:16:18] Nicole Goodman: So as a recruiter then or your experience in HR, what are the roles and industries you think you’ll be recruiting for most in the not so distant future?
[00:16:27] Catherine Kennedy: Yes. So look, I think from an industry perspective, there’s still, you know, that can be largely driven by some factors. Well, outside of AI, I mean, you only have to look around the world right now and energy businesses are doing really well. And other businesses are obviously impacted a lot. So it’s more the type of role I think, that will be recruiting more so than the industry. And it is the roles that bring analysis in terms of translating data into outcomes. So anything that is, you know, it requires that human nuance, understanding of human interaction, even with the more technical areas like within accounting. We’re seeing a lot of demand for senior roles within that sector to be able to translate what all of the huge amount of information that they’re able to get out of AI. But what does that then mean for our business? And you have to bring a human lens to that because, you know, the world is made up of humans. And so that’s definitely the key sort of skill set, I suppose, that I think is going to become increasingly a feature to work alongside this huge AI tsunami.
[00:17:37] Nicole Goodman: Katherine, with 69% of employees saying that employers aren’t preparing them sufficiently for AI, what are the things that employers need to be doing to really bolster the environment, to support their workers, to support graduates even? What should businesses be doing now to help them springboard into the AI future?
[00:18:00] Catherine Kennedy: So I think there’s two sides of that. There is the delivery or providing access to training and upskilling. So that’s one side of it. And I think exactly what that looks like or how it should be delivered or what the content should be, I think will be ever changing and will be quite unique to the situation of that particular organisation in their workforce. I don’t think there’s a kind of a one size fits all. This is what you should do from a learning and development perspective, but the best organisations and indeed the organisations who are able to attract the highest calibre talent, and this is just even in our experience in the market right now, are the ones that can articulate to a candidate how they’re going to support and equip them for the AI future. So that is that is one side of things. But the other more broadly, I think is around communication and a really good change management process. So in the absence of clear communication, it’s human nature to make things up. So I think in terms of just preparing workforces for this AI future, it’s regular, consistent, transparent communication is going to really, I guess, give the best springboard into the future.
[00:19:18] Host – Grace Jennings-Edquist: That was Catherine Kennedy, Managing Director at People2People Recruitment. Thanks for joining us for this week’s episode. Follow Business Essentials Podcast across social media and head to www.BusinessEssentialsPodcast.au for more. Business Essentials is a SoundCartel podcast. Producers are Nick Schildberger, Nicole Goodman and myself. Technical production is by Pete Letts. I’m Grace Jennings-Edquist thanks for listening. We’ll bring you more business essentials next week.
